Notes and Comments on Phaedo -- 7

17 June 2023

Notes and Comments on Phaedo – 7

Continuing with my observations on Phaedo, a reminder that I am using the Harold North Fowler translation published by the Loeb Classical Library:

“’That,’ said Cebes, ‘seems sensible.  But what you said just now, Socrates, that philosophers ought to be ready and willing to die, that seems strange if we were right just now in saying that god is our guardian and we are his possessions.  For it is not reasonable that the wisest men should not be troubled when they leave that service in which the gods, who are the best overseers in the world, are watching over them.  A wise man certainly does not think that when he is free he can take better care of himself than they do.  A foolish man might perhaps think so, that he ought to run away from his master, and he would not consider that he must not run away from a good master, but ought to stay with him as long as possible; and so he might thoughtlessly run away; but a man of sense would wish to be always with one who is better than himself.  And yet, Socrates, if we look at it in this way, the contrary of what we just said seems natural; for the wise ought to be troubled at dying and the foolish to rejoice.’

“When Socrates heard this I thought he was pleased by Cebes’ earnestness, and glancing at us, he said, ‘Cebes is always on the track of arguments and will not be easily convinced by whatever anyone says.’

“And Simmias said, ‘Well, Socrates, this time I think myself that Cebs is right.  For why should really wise men run away from masters who are better than they and lightly separate themselves from them?  And it strikes me that Cebes is aiming his argument at you, because you are so ready to leave us and the gods, who are, as you yourself agree, good rulers.’

“’You have a right to say that,’ he replied; ‘for I think you mean that I must defend myself against this accusation, as if we were in a law court.’

“’Precisely,’ said Simmias.

“’Well, then,’ said he, ‘I will try to make a more convincing defence than I did before the judges.  For if I did not believe,’ said, he, ‘that I was going to other wise and good gods, and, moreover, to men who have died, better men than those here, I should be wrong in not grieving at death.  But as it is, you may rest assured that I expect to go to good men, though I should not care to assert this positively; but I would assert as positively as anything about such matters that I am going to gods who are good masters.  And therefore, so far as that is concerned, I not only do not grieve, but I have great hopes that there is something in store for the dead, and, as has been said of old, something better for the good than for the wicked.’”

“’Well,’ said Simmias, ‘do you intend to go away, Socrates, and keep your opinion to ourself, or would you let us share it?  It seems to me that this is a good which belongs in common to us also, and at the same time, if you convince us by what you say, that will serve as your defence.’

“’I will try’ he replied.”

(Ibid pages 219-221)

1.  I get the impression that in this part of the dialogue Cebes and Simmias are arguing just for the sake of arguing.  I think that is why Socrates says, “You have a right to say that,” which is a way people, even today, mildly dismiss someone’s comment.  It means that someone has a ‘right’ to speak as they wish, even if it doesn’t make much sense or even if the comment is beside the point.

2.  I think that Cebes and Simmias, at times, play a kind of semi-sophistical role.  This gives Plato the chance to unpack the views of Socrates further and helps to propel the discussion forward.

3.  In discussions about life after death and the nature of the soul, skeptics tend to demand very high standards of proof.  Socrates will present a number of arguments for the immortality of the soul, for rebirth, and for what we would call karma shaping one’s destiny in the realms one enters after dying.  Some of Socrates’s arguments are analogical, some are more technical; personally I find all of them well thought out.  But I am aware that many do not feel that way and don’t find them convincing.

This raises the question as to what kind of argument would be convincing for a skeptic?  My feeling is that no amount of evidence, no kind of argument, would be convincing for a skeptic. 

4.  Socrates believes that he is going to meet wise gods and people because he has practiced philosophy during his lifetime.  This belief of Socrates counters Cebes’s assertions, but will Cebes and Simmias be receptive to what Socrates has to say.  I think it is unlikely.

To be fair to Cebes and Simmias, I think their emotional turmoil in this setting may also be coloring their tendency to question Socrates on these matters.  Perhaps Cebes and Simmias still hold on to a hope that, at the last moment, Socrates will agree to escape his situation and that if they can undermine Socrates’s beliefs, the basis of his actions at this time and place, they might be able to convince him to bribe the guards and escape from Athens.

5.  It is noteworthy that Socrates responds to the demands of Cebes and Simmias that he offer a clearer defense of his position with “I will try.”  Socrates doesn’t say “I will do so.”  This may go back to the esoteric nature of the teachings Socrates is basing his view on, which were previously mentioned; I mean that he may be reluctant to offer oath-bound teachings.  Or it may be that Socrates recognizes the emotional complexity of the situation and that Cebes and Simmias are emotionally disinclined to accept what Socrates has to say.  Or it may be that the limited time left for Socrates makes it difficult for Socrates to unpack what is inherently a complex argument(s). 

But it is a good fortune for us that Socrates is going to ‘try’ to present a clearer defense, one that we can read these many centuries later, one that we can learn from and apply to our own lives.